Dear Angus I don't know specifically what business man you are referring to and I don't really want to know - nor do I know if any postings have been edited or why. I also have nothing to do with startups.co.uk - but I would like to make a general point on this issue. Running a public forum such as this is a difficult challenge. We must remeber that its primary purpose is to help entrepreneurs starting up a business - and to attract them to startups.co.uk by providing such a service. Invariably conversations will stray as it is an interactive medium, and I suspect that this is usually tolerated, however when it gets on to issues of personalities and comments on them, rather than how entrepreneurs can help one another, any moderator has the right and indeed obligation to intervene - most of all for the user community as they come to forums such as this for help not to become embroiled in media arguments. Crimson Publishing may or may not have an interest such as you suggest - but I would say that is irrelevant in this forum. Sure, if it was a general forum on media issues and encoraging discussion on personalities then your reasonable protest would be more appropriate - but I don't believe the subject you are dicussing is in the right context for this board - as that is not its purpose. I have been thinking of these issues as I am considering running some sort of forum on our site but am still nervous about it - we want to help entrepreneurs to sort out business problems and learn and the last thing I want for them is to come and be offended by postings or become side tracked - that would not serve them well. Regards Innovateur Innovateur >> Free Entrepreneur Intelligence http://www.innovateur.co.uk
------------------------
Innovateur
Venture Resources for High Growth Potential Projects
http://www.innovateurs.com

Innovateur You are correct to be be wary of starting a forum on your site. The legal issues are just one aspect to consider. A forum also needs to have 'life' - and you need to know how to deal with the inevitable interlopers. It's a full-time job which requires a specific expertise - as many site owners have discovered too late (witness the many ghostly forums about). I've seen many 'online communities' overtaken by trolls, spammers and timewasters. So good luck - but weigh up the pros and cons before you wade in. cheers Robin [url]http://www.robinhoughton.com[/url]
------------------------
Eggbox: Cracking Online Marketing
http://www.eggboxmarketing.co.uk

quote:

---

Originally posted by robinh
Innovateur You are correct to be be wary of starting a forum on your site. The legal issues are just one aspect to consider. A forum also needs to have 'life' - and you need to know how to deal with the inevitable interlopers. It's a full-time job which requires a specific expertise - as many site owners have discovered too late (witness the many ghostly forums about). I've seen many 'online communities' overtaken by trolls, spammers and timewasters. So good luck - but weigh up the pros and cons before you wade in. cheers Robin [url]http://www.robinhoughton.com[/url]

---

What dissapointed me most was the removal of the post on the "Win a PA for a year" thread which pointed out that the questionairre which you had to fill in had no "Opt out of spam" clause, a terrible bit of censorship of a very valid point! Indeed this was the reason I aborted the questionairre, even if I really could use the £1000 from grouptrade. Bumpy
------------------------
Phil Royall
http://www.beardedfrog.com

Hi Bumpy, Just to let you know that the questinaire does have an opt-out clause, but we now agree it's not as clear as it could of been. Robin H brought this to our attention and we'll make sure a simple tick box is used next time. However, can I just reaffirm that we have never, and have no intention to in the future, sold our data lists. The message discussing this was edited by myself because it initally claimed that we did sell users' details to marketing companies, which frankly isn't ture. I hope this clears things up, Matt Thomas web editor

Well, I have just been censored twice with regards to this subject and have just emailed 20 of the most active members to let them know, if this post is removed I have no issue with emailing the entire membership of the startups forum. MY EMAIL Hi, I'm sorry to bother you, and I will not be emailing you again, I wish to advise the members of the www.startups.co.uk forum that it is highly censored. A couple of days ago I posted a message advising the membership of a free logo design competition, the forum being no doubt full of new startups I felt it could be of real value to the members - despite being in no way a 'scam' or advert the thread was deleted. Then I subsequently responded to the current thread about censorship on the forum, to say that my thread had been deleted and that I felt that deleting something that could be of real value to members who are starting out and need to save money where they can, was unfair to the membership and that they should be trying to offer their members value from the community, not delete this type of thing. This too was deleted! So I am emailing the membership to let them know as startups will delete any of my threads on this subject matter. Thank you for listening. Amanda WWW.TRULYACE.COM Logo Design - Graphic Design - Illustration Regards Amanda www.trulyace.com Logo/Graphic Design & Illustration
------------------------
Regards

Amanda


Truly Ace Graphic Design Blog


Logo Design I Web Design I Print Design

I have now emailed 35 of the most active members, I really don't want to spend my morning doing this as it's very time consuming, but I feel that censorship is an important issue - however I will continue if this post is removed - not just with the membership of this forum, but elsewhere also. Sorry if I have bothered anyone by emailing them :-) Regards Amanda www.trulyace.com Logo/Graphic Design & Illustration
------------------------
Regards

Amanda


Truly Ace Graphic Design Blog


Logo Design I Web Design I Print Design

In response to an email from a member saying they can understand why things like this would be deleted, because they are promotions and I should pay for the advertising to promote such an thing, this was my response to it: I don't think there is anything wrong with promotions that benefit people, I honestly don't - I believe them to be a win win situation. Perhaps this is why the startups forum doesn't do as well as other online communities for activity, because for fear of losing 'advertising revenue' they refuse their membership to offer anything of value to each other. Other communities (in fact every single other community) allows this type of post because although a promotion, it does offering something valuable also. The best way for startups to get advertising revenues is by having a very active community with which to lure advertisers in with, and they are never going to have that until they allow members to barter/promote amongst themselves, as long as the promotion offers more than just promotion. For instance a member has just posted an offer on my A Home Business club (with 100 members)at another community, its a blatant promotion but offers a very well priced and heavily discounted product, so although an advert I'm leaving it on there as it could be of great value to my members. I think startups are less concerned about helping their members and more concerned about lining their pockets, without realising the two go hand in hand. Regards Amanda www.trulyace.com Logo/Graphic Design & Illustration
------------------------
Regards

Amanda


Truly Ace Graphic Design Blog


Logo Design I Web Design I Print Design

Er, please see new 'offers for startups' forum. Regards, Matt Thomas web editor

Thank you Matthew, I do believe I had some valid points, and I would hate to see some start up business miss the opportunity to gain free branding, branding is expensive and I'm pleased to see that you can listen to your members view point. I think in future however you should advise people when censoring them, so that they have the option to give you their point of view on the matter - then we wouldn't get into these ugly brawls ;-) The only thing about that offers section, is it just going to be full of 'homebiz' scams now, so that any real offers are lost in there? Regards Amanda Regards Amanda www.trulyace.com Logo/Graphic Design & Illustration
------------------------
Regards

Amanda


Truly Ace Graphic Design Blog


Logo Design I Web Design I Print Design

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bumpy
What dissapointed me most was the removal of the post on the "Win a PA for a year" thread which pointed out that the questionairre which you had to fill in had no "Opt out of spam" clause, a terrible bit of censorship of a very valid point! Indeed this was the reason I aborted the questionairre, even if I really could use the £1000 from grouptrade. Bumpy

---

Great! The prizes just keep getting better! Also if the data will not be sold, then the line: "Crimson Publishing and selected third parties may use your information for direct marketing purposes, see our privacy policy for further information" Is a little misleading no?
------------------------
Phil Royall
http://www.beardedfrog.com

That competition looks quite odd. For one thing, there's no apparent closing date. It's been running for some time now, which may lead to suspicions as to its purpose. Secondly, I can't find any opt-out clause on the survey - if it exists, it's cleverly hidden or couched in something else. As for censorship, this forum does not adhere to the rules of print publications in separating editorial decisions from commercial ones. The thread in question was about Reuben Singh, owner of Allday PA and Grouptrade, prizegiver in said competition, advertiser on this site and "business person of the year" (as judged by this site). Hmmm... Various contributions to the thread which were negative but not libellous were deleted and the thread eventually was locked to prevent additional postings. A subsequent interview with Mr Singh allowed him to respond to the thread questions with trite, sometimes incredible responses, none of which which were challenged by the interviewer, nor was there any opportunity for forum members to add their views. It's an effective way to stifle criticism of a site sponsor, but ultimately this behaviour by the site admins will damage the site itself.

OK can we please sort a few things out: The competition had no initial closing date because the main purpose of it as a 'reader survey' was to collect a significant amount of information to help us develop the site. As we've never done this before, we weren't sure how long this would take so didn't set any rigid dates. There is an opt-out, BUT as we've already discussed at great length it's not very clear and having listened to your objections we'll make all future opt-outs as clear as possible. Once again, we have never and will never sell your details. "As for censorship, this forum does not adhere to the rules of print publications in separating editorial decisions from commercial ones." It does as much as we possibly can. The thread in question about Reuben Singh, owner of Allday PA and Grouptrade, was allowed to run naturally until direct and potentially libellous accusations were made, and members of the AlldayPA press office's phone numbers were posted. We could have removed the post then, but instead used our connections to ask Reuben if he'd answer your questions. Given that the majority of the tabloid and broadsheet press have been trying to secure interviews with him, we were very grateful he agreed. The interview consisted completely of readers' questions, and was conducted by email so there was no opportunity for 'challenging'. We were also told that Reuben wanted to clear up the matter once and for all, hence the freezing of the response thread. This was a condition of the interview and the only way we could get you the feedback. AlldayPA do advertise on the site, but has had no influence on our actions in freezing/removing posts but instead enabled us to get your questions answered. Our removal of posts for potentially libellous reasons is the same with any company or individual. AlldayPA's sponsorship of the survey was agreed way before this all blew up and I really don't see what the issue is. I'm sure the winner won't have any complaints. The Grouptrade prize is a little more complicated and something we're looking into, but it will obviously be honoured one way or another. Similarly, Reuben's billing in our 'top entrepreneur' feature was decided way before this and was not at all influenced by advertising. We really wouldn't need to employ journalists if we simply sold off our content to the highest bidder. Indeed, he was one of very few of our advertisers to make the list. To say that we're "stifling criticism of a site sponsor" is unfair. Which other site/publication takes questions as hard-hitting as those asked to Reuben to its advertisers? Look at our news sections and you'll also see regular questioning of the Inland Revenue, Business Link, the banks, BT - all of these are or have been advertisers of ours. Indeed, I regularly turn away advertisers offering large amounts of money to buy editorial on startups. That's because we want to offer independent advice, information and news; and also a forum where people can exhange ideas and opinions. Sure, we're a commercial site but the advertisers we partner with are carefully selected because we think they offer a service our readers might be interested in. We offer them the ad space for this, nothing more, nothing less. I really hope this clears things up and we can all get back to our jobs! Thanks, Matt Thomas web editor

Matt - Thanks for the information. Just out of curiosity (moreso than anything else), how commercial an operation is startups.co.uk. Is it purely a profit venture designed to generate income from advertising (which in theory is attracive because many people would want to access its resources) or is it in conjunction with any enterprise agency? Might it be an idea to contact DETI about the site? Interviews with such high profile people (RS and now Anita Roddick - can't wait) is surely something that would appeal to many more people that the few hundred who are subscribed. Just curious. - Neil

Hi Neil, The site is independent and is part of Crimson Publishing - www.crimsonpublishing.co.uk. I'll bear in mind you're recommendation, thanks. But while there are only a few hundred registered users on the forum, the site as a whole is currently attracting over 36,000 unique users each month - about 40 per cent of the new business startups market. You're right though, the site continues to develop and we're always looking at ways to improve it and get it in front of more people. Kind regards, Matt